Ep 92 The Quiet Exit — Susan Braakman on the Courage to Walk Away and Listen Again

Today's guest is someone who reminds us that leadership doesn't begin with speaking. It actually begins with listening. Susan Braakman is the founder of Listen Consulting, where she helps organizations and leaders rediscover the power of genuine curiosity, empathy, and interest in people. Her journey began with a powerful mirror moment, when she chose to leave a company whose values no longer aligned with her own.

and where she no longer felt heard. This is a story about walking away from the noise, finding integrity in silence, and building a business that helps others to truly listen again. So let's get started.

welcome, welcome, welcome. Thank you for joining me.

Thanks, thanks for having me.

So before we dive into your story today, tell me what's in your cup

Yeah, so what's in my cup? I have normal tap water, like regular tap water, cold, with a slice of fresh lemon.

I'm in ice coffee mode today. No hot coffee for either of us. Reserve that for the mornings, right?

Yes indeed, yeah.

Although I do always have one in the afternoon too, after lunch.

Awesome. So let's You've built a business around listening, right? When did you first realize that listening become sort of your life's work and what you really wanted to do?

Correct.

Yeah, I think it has been a journey, I have to say. Because I think it's been part of my life and part of what I do for a long period of time. my dad used to be an excellent listener and also the way that he listens to music and how I listen to music. But now we talk about, of course, more listening in the workplace, right? And listening as a leader and how you show up as a leader.

And I think, because I studied sociology and that is very much about how people connect, how groups get together and listening is a big part of that. So I realized that every step that I took and I've come to that realization, I think since six months or something, had to do...

with this active listening and something that I do and I hear it from friends a lot like you listen so well and

Just your

superpower is listening. It's amazing, Susan.

Yeah, yeah,

and I know I did that since I was a kid already. And yeah, so I guess the realization came, it's not a specific moment, but it's when I started Listen Consulting, before it was Listen Mediation, but I did my mediation course as well. And a big part in mediation is listening. And again, it was confirmed.

So it all trickled and that realization point was there and I was like, okay, yeah, this is it. This is going to be my life's work.

is it.

Amazing.

if we think about listening, it's like hard for some of us. But to you, what does it truly mean to you beyond just hearing words in your ear, right? What does it really mean?

Yeah, I think indeed what you say is so true. It means so much more than hearing words or hearing music or hearing sounds. It's about understanding, truly understanding. It's about seeing the other and it's not just listening, but it's like in Dutch we call it waarnemen. So seeing full picture and with that understanding someone. So that means that listening is not just staying quiet either. It's not...

It's giving that attention to someone indeed, but it's also intentionally ask the right questions, being curious. It's about wanting to understand what the other means. And that all happens through listening and through reflecting as well. Not reflecting by yourself, but reflecting what the other says.

repeat it in different words. if you start doing that, you will see that people will be like, yeah, but that's what I mean. You truly see me. This is exactly what you mean. And it's not a trick. It should never be a trick. It should be authentic. It should be with intention. So there's way more than just hearing.

And it's hard for some people. It's not just a skill. It's a learning. It's a practicing. Yes, you have the superpower, but not everybody is born with that superpower. So we need to see how can we help each other to learn that as well. And well, you mentioned to me that you had a mirror moment in a previous job, right? You were resigning for a job and you didn't feel heard where the companies, their values didn't necessarily align with yours at the time, right?

Mm-hmm.

Indeed,

Yeah.

Can

you take me back to that moment? What was happening inside you at the time? And what was that moment about for you?

Yeah, yeah, so I think it was my third job or something. It was within a company, you know, with a team that was very tight. ⁓ Yeah, close. Yeah, they had very good processes. I got paid quite well.

close.

But I felt that something wasn't right. And I couldn't, know, when I first started, I was like, okay, I'll just have to get used to this, right? Because it was a totally new culture. I stepped into that role after being in a company for more than 10 years. So I was so involved in that company before. then, indeed, yeah. And then stepping into a new role, like, okay, I'll just see. I guess I just have to get used to, you know, this way of working.

⁓ what a transition already. Yeah.

But what I then recognized is that there was the management and then I'm talking about the higher management. So like the CFOs, the CEO, they were a world apart by the way, the CEO and CFO. So I'm not saying that they were the same person because they were totally different. But their way of managing was very much based on fear. So very much based on you need to do this right.

Yeah.

or they would start yelling, you know, it was just... and especially one of them. So it was... Every time, you know, when he would phone me or he would call me and he's like, I want you to come down and I would always be like, shit, what have I done wrong?

Really?

have egg shells.

You know, yeah, indeed. That

that feeling of, ⁓ shit, here we go. Yeah. And then he would, I don't think he ever screamed at me or yelled at me, but he was super powerful in using his words. And it was all about his words. I did not even get the chance to react or to respond. The only thing I could do is, okay, point taken.

Yeah. no.

Can I please go? I wanted to leave that office. I was like, okay, can I please go now? I'll make sure next time it's better or, you know, it's improved.

Ugh.

Wow, that had

to feel so intimidating or belittling also. Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, that's what it was. And then I was like, hmm, I just don't feel hurt. I and I feel that especially because I was in a in an HR role. HR is about caring about people, right, and making sure that everyone is okay. And, you know, having actual conversations with people. But if that's not happening at that level, then there's such a distance and a disconnect that people will leave. So that's what I did.

Oof.

And after leaving I realized it happened before. I had managers before that weren't listening. I took different steps but it all came down to that same thing.

I

And then how did it feel when you actually walked away from that role because of that? How did it feel personally?

Yeah well

to take that first step was scary, was super scary because I was like what am I gonna give up and I am going to give up that's not me either but I was like I just need to do this so the moment I took the decision I felt some sort of relief but then I still had to first I had to resign to do the actual resignation and to

Yeah, bad.

actually hand him a notice and be like what's gonna happen because that was the first yeah what am i gonna say what am i gonna do ⁓ yeah yeah but the reaction was actually okay they took it very well and that was also because i was very honest because i wanted them to know the reason why and i didn't want to make up a thing or i didn't want to make up something like a random

What are they gonna say? Yeah.

and the reaction.

reason I got another job or things like that. But actually saying this is the reason I'm going to leave and then I leave it with them what they do with it, right?

Yeah.

Mmm, yeah, smart.

And I don't think it ever changed there, because it's so way ingrained in the culture and everything like that, but it felt so good to stay close to me and to my values and to be like okay, I'm out of here.

That's amazing. And then if

you take us to now, right, after that, after you walked away from that, and you started Listen Consulting. what did you carry with you from that experience? Or have you actually carried anything with you from that experience into what you're doing now?

Yeah, absolutely. because the like Listen Consulting is about making people realize how important listening is. And especially if we talk about listen mediation, about mediation in any way, many conflicts, they exist because of lack of listening.

by one or the other. And when you're in a mediation conversation or you're in a conversation with me in this case, I would ask questions or I would reflect on certain things that people would be like, yeah but this is actually what I meant and the person that they have the conflict with are like,

Mmm.

we never spoke about this or I never heard this or this is something that never became apparent when we spoke. And that means that the listening part was lacking.

Yeah, and there's a big difference between listening and hearing, right?

Yeah,

absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. So that's what I took away. And for Listen Consulting, it's about, again, the awareness, but really making sure that companies, and in the end, want Listen Consulting to be way bigger. I want it to be way bigger than training companies. want it to be about that world leaders start to listen to each other too.

And looking at the Dutch politics at the moment, like everything that has happened, it's all about the personal power of people. if you look at those debates, I just turn them off because I'm like, okay, you're not listening.

I just can't. I

with intent. Yeah, the intent to make yourself heard, right? Which is logical too, I mean, don't get me wrong, because people want to be heard. So that means that people that speak, and I too, me included, I also want to be heard. But it's about getting the right partner to talk with who understands that point and doesn't want to bring his point across all the time.

To win.

Yeah.

Enter politics. Difficult. And do

you think that listening is something that leaders are taught over the years or something they have to constantly be reminded or remember to do in the first place?

yeah, I guess it depends per person and who, you know, who got into the role because of what they know, like content wise, for instance, because you do see a lot of managers that, for instance, were a very good technician or something like that, and or a very good recruiter, it can be anything. And then they're asked because they're so good at it.

to manage the team of recruiters or the team of technicians. And that's where you usually don't get those listening skills unless you have them in yourself and it's something that you naturally, Because they're focused to transfer their knowledge to the team because what they're doing very well, they are teaching that to their employees. ⁓

⁓ right.

Naturally.

No.

But that means that listening will always be a third or a fourth ranking on the ladder of what am I going to do, right? So that's where I think... yeah. So I think those people and those managers should, of course there are differences, but that should be reminded and it should be trained on. But people that have...

Yeah. What a good point. That makes so much sense,

really applied for a manager's role or feel like I want to manage people, they do that because of their willingness and their interest, their true interest in people and wanting to develop, it's different. And then that listening part is, I think, more active. Yeah.

That's different. Yeah.

Yeah,

that we're naturally there. That makes sense. That makes total sense. I have not thought of it like that. That really does make sense. before we head out, do you have any last advice for anyone who might be in an environment like you were back then, where you didn't feel heard or that was not necessarily toxic, but in an environment that doesn't match what your values are?

Yeah.

Do any advice for people who are in that situation? Now, what's one thing that they can do to either deal with their environment and stay or find their voice in order to start communicating better themselves?

Yeah. I think the one advice that I would give is when you come to that realization something's off in this environment, something doesn't feel right, that you find out what it is and if it's indeed about not feeling hurt or it is about I'm not feeling safe.

to talk about my feelings or to say anything or I feel I cannot speak up that you find someone, a mentor either within the company that you're with or outside of the company that you speak with that person and to start mirroring like okay what should I do here? Because that's something you cannot solve yourself you have to

have people around you because it's super scary to take that decision because it's your job, it's your bread and water. ⁓

Yeah. If it's your manager,

then that's also not comfortable to be having directly as well at that moment because your job's at risk potentially. The mentor, that's perfect advice. Perfect. Couldn't agree more.

and

Exactly, yeah.

⁓ Yeah,

yeah. First start listening to yourself and be authentic and what is it that I want and then to find your mentor.

Well, thank you so, much for joining me before we head out. Where can people find you?

Yeah, they can find me by looking up my name, Susan Braakman on LinkedIn. I'm quite active on LinkedIn. I have my LinkedIn profile and I'm very open to connect. Of course, you can always reach out via a direct message as well. And my website is listenconsulting.nl And there you can find all of the things that I'm involved in and what I do and the services that I can offer.

And just stay tuned because there's more to come

Awesome.

Well, Susan, I really want to thank you. You have inspired me with listening for my goodness, how long have I known you? think 12 or 13 years now. Really by far, this is like so much your superpower. It's always been since the first day I met you and it's inspiring. So thank you. I'm really excited to see you in this space as well.

Yeah, I think so. Yeah.

Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

Thank you, thank you for joining me. Till next time.

Well, that was Morning Cup of Brand Spark a reminder that clarity doesn't always sound loud. Sometimes it sounds like stillness. A huge thank you to Susan Braakman from Listen Consulting for this beautiful reflection on what happens when we chose to walk away from noise and then listen again. If this conversation made you pause or breathe a little bit deeper,

then share it with someone who might need that reflection too. So until next time, keep your coffee warm and your clarity close. I'll see you soon.